DOOMSDAY News: New Immigration Policy in the Netherlands

Originally Posted by milay

most people take racism in stride but lately i took notice of the racial comments of my colleagues at work.

Hi Milay. Well you don't have to be in your office or at work to hear offensive rascist comments. These very forums contain a few from asawa regulars. Three things are surprising. The first is that on a site dedicated to exploring Fil -west relationships the attacks are made on Filipinos and their culture and come from people either involved, married or looking to be involved with a Filipino. The second, is that there's no reaction, either by Bob or any of the moderators. Maybe they consider it borderline acceptable discussion. I have yet to see a Filipina stand up and say anything about it either.

I don't know about these cases in Holland and Belgium..I'll take a look when I have more time.

Originally Posted by KikayandI

I don't think there is a 'how'. The needs of each member state are quite different so a unified policy on immigration doesn't make sense. If Holland is full and doesn't need a large workforce to sustain it's economy other countries (including supposedly rich ones like the UK) are in dire need of both skilled and unskilled workforces. There are even substantial differences within these. While the UK desperately needs teachers and nurses (targeting 3rd countries like Africa for teachers and the Philippines for nurses), Spain desperately needs unskilled workers in 3 main areas, agriculture, construction and catering / tourism.The same phenomenon occurs in Spain with an underlying difference. Spaniards don't want to work on farms, as heavy labourers in construction, or be waiters.

Yes, for the most part immigration in western countries is economic driven, to feed the cycle of supply and demand.

I think this happened in the Netherlands in the 1960s-1970s when the country experienced a huge economic boom that led to shortage of workers mainly in the unskilled labor market. The average Dutch doesn't want to get their hands dirty anymore and are pursuing education within the white collar job range. This was the reason why lots of South Europeans (Spanish, Italians, Greeks and Portuguese at that time) and Moroccans and Turks came to the country to work in Agriculture and other manual related jobs. However, economy of South Europe became better and the South Europeans returned back home while the other guest workers --- the Turks and Moroccans stayed and in fact brought over their whole families. Since then they have multiplied and probably account to +- 8% of the population.

The job gaps for manual labor in the country have since been fulfilled and in fact there is less work to be found in this sector.

The main job issue here is in the ICT industry, specifically on technical jobs, which I believe is constrained not only in Holland, but in Europe, Americas and everywhere else.

Originally Posted by KikayandI

I think it's a positive thing that the constitution was voted against. It came as a real shock to business and their puppets didn't it? Sometimes consent cannot be manufactured by the PR media machine.
So while the interests of business in Holland is one thing, it is another elsewherei Europe.

It is funny, the Dutch actually voted against the European constitution because they do not like to be pushed over by the big shots – France, Germany and UK.

In addition, the Dutch are very particular about finance and they disliked what happened in Strasbourg; how Chirac and the rest of the French government ignored their spending beyond the allowed EU budget.

For a small country like the Netherlands, it is the highest giver per capita to the EU at 180 Euro per head, followed by Sweden at 95 Euro per head. Sad thing is, very little has returned back to the country and in fact France has been the biggest receiver of subsidies i.e. in farming.

These I believe were the main reasons why the Dutch voted against the constitution. If everything was fair, I am 100% sure the Dutch would have voted FOR the constitution --- as the business and political mindset of the people here, in order to survive and make profits, is all about allied partnerships with its neighbors.

Originally Posted by KikayandI

I don't quite get your point here. All I can understand from what you say here, it seems Holland only needs high level management 'immigration'. Corporate managers don't need to emigrate there anyway. They get work permits for however long they need to work there,right? I mean, business always gets what it wants with no hassle. Now the rights of ordinary people.....that's something else.

What I mean is, unlike other countries, Holland has never been an open immigration country. In fact it’s a closed immigration country, for years already. The economic migrants, better now known as knowledge migrants are very limited and with the EU borders spreading, its another case. The country adheres to the labor priority rule of, first the locals, then the EU citizens and if the position cannot be filled then that is the only time they would look for someone outside Europe. Most of these opportunities are what we call here the flagged scarce jobs, i.e. ICT technical jobs.

Originally Posted by milay

hi miss t, i heard on belgian news that the belgian gov't is offering hirsi ali citizenship if her dutch citizenship is revoked. what's your take on this?

Oh, I didn't know that Belgium offered her Belgian citizenship?

Well, Iron Rita was doing a sprint of a hell decision. I think she got carried away by her so-called IRON image. I do agree to some of Iron Rita's points and in fact she was right to the book, rules are rules, but she forgot to see things along the objective way. She has since given back the Dutch citizenship to Hirsi Ali, that is after the parliament voted her out (pressured would be the term) of the decision.

I also am not a fan of Hirsi Ali. She is a brave intelligent woman who stood up for women's rights and her opinions, whether unpopular or not, but her heavy-handed approach has only incited polarization in the social, religious and political climate within the country. I wonder how she will survive in the neo-conservative think tank of George Bush when what she basically is harping in the Netherlands is a no-no to politically correct USA?

As for Belgium offering her citizenship… well that makes me laugh! I mean, why?

Originally Posted by milay

belgium is currently in uproar over the horrible racial killings in antwerp. it shook the extreme right political party "vlaams belang" and their voters are being blamed as well.

Yes, I have followed Belgiums news with great interest. How did this ever become racial killings? What was the catalyst?

If I compare the Netherlands to what is going on with Belgium, well we haven't reached this level of crisis Belgium is currently facing. The xenophobia climate here is mainly geared to immigration rules but daily life atmosphere is quite normal I should say.

I personally would blame the media for sensationalizing certain issues (that's how they earn their money anyway), i.e., the fire at Schiphol airport that cost the lives of asylum seekers waiting for deportation; Taida Pasik, the East European student who illegally entered the country; Kalou, the football player who wants to become a Dutch citizen so he can play in the World Cup but failed his Dutch naturalization test 2x, and recently, the Hirsi Ali case.

Originally Posted by milay

most people take racism in stride but lately i took notice of the racial comments of my colleagues at work. i thought they were well traveled open minded people but judging by their words they have deeply rooted xenophobia! when i told them to be careful because i too am a "foreigner" they amended their generalisations by saying "your are an exeption". i think they just say it to either pacify me or patronise me. i know that as soon as i turn my back they'll start their litany about how different i am from them, and worse... how inferior.

I can understand what you are feeling though.

I too have heard about this pent-up xenophobia with the Dutch, but they are mainly geared towards the Moroccans (not even so much with the Turks).

We have many ethnic minorities here due to history; the sea-faring Dutch colonizing several countries. However, I do not hear negative sentiments with Indonesians, perhaps the biggest ethnic minority here in Holland. The Chinese and Vietnamese are somewhat low profile. The Surinamers are so and so. The Antilleans however, I have heard, some are into crime, specifically in Rotterdam. The Turks have a negative image due to being Muslims and how they treat some of their women. It's the Moroccans here that have a very negative image due to crime (I personally was robbed by Moroccan kids), unemployment = getting social benefits, aggression and using racism to lash out at the Dutch.

On the social benefits case, I will have to say that I partly blame the Dutch social system. Recently, they have made stricter rules to qualify for such benefits, still its a long stretch as humanity and helping the poor is the name of the game here in Europe.

Anyway, I usually try to detach myself from these racial issues and I always give the benefit of the doubt, unless it is directed towards me. So far I haven't really experienced being discriminated and if ever I would, that person would definitely hear from me, lol.

a belgian minister wanted to offer hirsi ali citizenship so she can serve as a showcase/example of a well integrated immigrant. well, could be a political move, too.

the racist comments i hear at work are mostly directed at the turks. maybe they've come to accept me as one of them that they forget i'm a foreigner, too and talk about their xenophobic blah-blahs within my earshot. i just couldn't let it go so i confronted them outright. now they're wary about discussing these things aloud when i'm around.

it's still a long rocky road to go before people totally accept our racial differences and not be terrified about it.